This is a problem, at least up to level 65. MS is a carrot and stick culture with some heavy emphasis on stick. One, we bill customers higher for higher levels and we call everyone 'highly experienced' or even an 'architect'. Its a natural consequence of the learning curve. I used to work in the OneCare team. Amy Hood. Know Your Worth. I like such themes and everything that is connected to them. No, L7 is 66-67. Are you ok with what you hear? If a spot is available. Judson Althoff. 3. I've seen L65's who can't own a cardboard box, let alone a room. I'm not talking about "managing up" (though that helps a little if done properly) but it's all about understanding your manager and skip manager's priorities and proactively succeeding in those areas. You'd do well to read it again:Success in business comes from serving your customers, not about beating your competition. This is a really awesome post. Next, make sure your manager values your contributions and surpass their expectations, making yourself invaluable and not immediately replaceable. If you can't ever figure it out, and if you can't become a "favorite underling", then it's time to find a different group with people you can better relate-to. Your manager has to know that either you get promoted sometime soon or you will go and get promoted somewhere else. It works like this: Senior (L64,63) - works on tactical efforts, writes code or works on projects autonomously, collaborates with others Therefore, our need for people who can collaborate across their own team, across disciplines, across org boundaries is greater than ever before. This slighlty contradicts some of the other posts. Youre hanging onto the bar swing back and forth feeling pretty secure. Make them successful at their job. Join the Levels.fyi community to chat with employees at Microsoft and other tech companies. Copyright 2008-2023, Glassdoor, Inc. "Glassdoor" and logo are registered trademarks of Glassdoor, Inc. You may not need them to get from 59->60, but if you're good at them, it'll make your rise much quicker. I thought changing groups would help me get promoted faster however all it did was make me resart from ground zero with each group. While a manager can help coach you, and you can follow the advice in this post and comments (most of which are great, by the way), you have no way of knowing if there are 0 or 10 people also on the team doing the same things, ahead of you for the limited number of promotions available. Some related job titles areMarketing Director salaries with median pay of $163,348,Senior Consultant salaries with median pay of $123,519,Senior Product Manager salaries with median pay of $193,845,Managing Director salaries with median pay of $333,006. I sat there at L64 for 5+ years. Here is my question, I don't trust that my manager will fight for me to get me to 63 for the following reasons:- The area I own is not big enough for a 63 but at the same time there is not other areas he can give to me given where we are as a team without taking away from my peers, something he would not want to do unless there is a big problem with a peer not delivering which is not the case.- Innovation - this leaves me with trying to come up with other areas that the team can focus on in addition to current goals to leap frog us and which I can own; so far even though some of my ideas are really good (according to the mgr) the timing is off (ie the team has not reached that level yet where my ideas would be practical to implement given the big ROI)In short I can't trust that this mgr will get me to 63 in a time frame that I would like to see it happen (provided that I nail the qualities you highlight for a 63) which leaves me with the following choices:-Sticking around and continue working on displaying 63 qualities until the above points change, and who knows how long that will take- leave for another team internally (which means a bit of time to establish myself again etc) but at the same it would give me more clear timeline of when I can say I am 100% delivering as a 63.-get external offers (eg from Google), bring it up with the mgr and thereby force a change (more responsibility) since leaving would hurt the team in at least the short term. Woow. Thankfully, those are relatively uncommon. How you perform in interview is going to matter on whether you get proper mapping or not. It appears on 6.3% of resumes. If the answer for you is "No" and you don't like that, well, what are you going to do? This is where I agree with Mini regarding taking MSFT back to the good ol' lean, mean, and efficient company we enjoyed. No, never: now, going back to that <> question above: if your boss is answering "No, never" then this is a red-alert moment for you. It sounds fishy. I've seen L65's who can't own a cardboard box, let alone a room.Well you know, don't go for them for advice! I'm a level 62 dev trying to get to 63. Will a L63 have direct reports and/or manage v-? I came in at 58 (9) and having been through a) I wish I had gone through b). 1. I've been 3.5 years at 62 and re-orged every year in mobile.Any ideas on how to carry greats results of one role into another through a re-org. Seek out local critique before you approach people above you. Because, IMO, that is the jist of jcr's post. You've told me you're not willing to have the hard career conversation with me and/or that you're not willing to do what I told you needed to be done when we had that conversation. Maybe one boss likes to see a lot of code written, and another settles for less code, but fewer bugs. Unless you know for sure that your boss's answer is an immediate "Absolutely!" Learn How to State Your Case and Earn Your Raise, Climb the Ladder With These Proven Promotion Tips, A Guide to Negotiating the Salary You Deserve, How to Prepare for Your Interview and Land the Job. Levels are different outside the US. Few others are long time softies who have been doing average to good job for very long time (3-7 years) without getting any promos. I've been hearing some stealth layoffs around the SQL and BOSG groups, around 70+ people were given 6(?) Difference between getting promoted to L65 and joining as new FTE at L65 is HUGE. Up to that point the "what" you accomplish can get you pretty far and you get some wiggly room on the how. It doesn't matter what you want - you aren't the one deciding when you get promoted. There's a need to ooze authority in a way that is comforting to the person above you responsible for your career. By doing this they are short circuiting the feedback loop and thereby preventing themselves from improving. Can any reader in Corp Sales Excellence(SMS&P) privide guidance on how to grow from 63 to 64 in that group. For many in our sub, MCS seems to be the place of incompetent managers and just a pitstop to somewhere else. I take some of the blame for not managing my career more directly, but no one should be offered a promotion when they leave--if they are valuable, let them know before hand! Third, working on that weakness DAILY (but not exclusively) until they overcome it. Healthcare is the most common skill found on a senior director resume. Then they start pinging the manager on why and putting pressure on them to do something, move them up or out. An accomplished and proven Director / Tech & Business Principal / Programme Manager / Business Partner / Service Delivery Manager with a wide-ranging skillset, experienced in leading teams to success. Yet, when you have 2 or 3 offers at the end of very hard interview loops, which one are you going to choose: the team that listens to HR or the team that listens to the market? Their self criticism spurs them to improve. I suggest understanding why it is "No" first, truthfully accepting the point-of-view as pissed off as it may make you, and then having a self-directed action-plan to get on track. There is an over lap in all levels when you move across companies with m:n map. Buy a Principal a coffee. Add your salary anonymously in less than 60 seconds and continue exploring all the data. My experience is a constant melee of *every* single person trying to influence cross-group. jcr said >Apple's about to ship Snow Leopard with no new features. He identified the common denominators in becoming an expert in practically any field. Someone that 20 years ago made something as complex as Notepad may today be a VP, whereas if you make Notepad today you may not even get a pat on the back. The details in front of you are just details. If you're not an Absolutely! Mini -- you left out the most important option, which I took. The biggest lesson I learned here was how to work *with* other teams, even when I thought they weren't very good and even when our purposes didn't align. Weirder sh*t has happened before. Our entire unit was let go but we were moved to different groups in the org. When (if) you are then promoted to 62, you are not expected to continue performing at a level 62 level, but rather a level 63 level.The reason that you have to perform at a new level before reaching it is to avoid the Peter Principle, being people promoted up to their level of incompetence. Continue to do so until you've slapped yourself silly to the point that you're not complaining about how other folks must just be connected or political or adept at the finer art of buttock tongue massage. But my manager is communicating to me that it is very hard and I am likely to show patience for another year or two.I do not know how to confirm this without looking like whining. I say this because I have seen really smart people shunned because of 'house-on-fire' attitudes even when they were dead right. Most Directors are 63 and the occasional 64. There are definitely projects you can work on with your manager to increase your visibility, but if things don't happen right away just keep at it.Your manager should be able to give you fairly specific feedback on where you stand in your skip-level's eyes. But if your manager is undervaluing your work, and *that* is the factor that is making you unhappy, you can fix that. Propose a new one and spend a day in implementing it. If you're off-path, you can turn it around. I came from .NET (no longer there), and there were plenty of Senior IC PMs and Devs.Are you in Test, Marketing or Documentation? Great post. Maybe you are ready, but you and your manager can plan what would be the assignment that would show that you're ready. "I actually find the content of this post to be superficial, fairly naive and not reflective of my experience having moved through the ranks from 59 to >65. Leverage your professional network, and get hired. Taking on the toughest hardest problems does line up well with something everyone has talked about on this post - that is - make your managers look good. mini,time to start a new blog: maybe around current economy and msft. Isn't morale over the holidays going to be just wonderful? The first levels came quickly with some sticking around 64 and 65 (half my career).I have always taken on and fixed problem areas that no one else wants to take on. That's awesome. By persist, I do not mean being happy to be at the same <63 level for 3+ years for exmaple. if they'd only stop doing X and start doing Y on a sustained basis, I could see it Microsoft: Citi Cuts Ests, Target On PC Slowdown. "2) Peel the onion. The Job titles for this position are: Following is the complete list of Job levels at Microsoft: The highest job title in technical track in Microsoft is "Technical Fellow". Executive Vice President and Chief Commercial Officer. Getting constant feedback throughout is valuable as you can re-align and re-adjust in an agile way so that you are not shocked at review time that you have completely missed that promotion. I suspect the former because there's no point in a manager telling you that you got promoted when you didn't. Thats why L64->L65 transition is so hard. Keep your mouth shut most of the time (i.e. I'd like to see a transition plan from you in 2 days". Thoughts? The problem is you can't tell if you've done something to piss him off or if he's doing it because he has to. The estimated base pay is $243,438 per year. For example, when I joined MS in 1990 there were 6 devs working on the first version of Word for Windows. Wouldnt my manager get annoyed if I try to go over him to get myself know to VP? This is certainly the course that I took. Nothing you do is good, all you get is criticism. You might be too smart or have ideas that come from somewhere outside of Redmond which makes you very dangerous and not Microsoft material. I'd like to hear some more experiences from MCS. This is hard for your manager -- he probably doesn't have a clear idea of what it will take to make the case. Many folks lurk longer in the 60-62 range because they are not challenged enough to move to the next level. Thats a very helpful answer. I think getting promoted elsewhere is not as tough as getting promoted in CTS-GTSC. They are 100% star material. A Senior Director gets a basic salary package of $190,000, which gets as high . "There is no greater de-motivator than a reward system that is perceived to be unfair. I think folks like that are the one-offs who slipped by and most likely (given the scrutiny I see more and more) certainly wouldn't slip by today. I was an asshole, but I was better than my peers at getting shit done -- I was a PM in DevDiv at the time. What is up with the gold star awards? Are you sure you know what your boss wants? When it comes to where you actually rank and what you get paid that part is all that matters. Experienced Digital Transformation & creative leader with a strong executive presence, experienced in creating value, building relationships & consensus across board-level client executives that . It doesnt matter if the system is fair or not. Contributed and exceeded in two roles - getting G-Star, then moved to another team with clear headroom and again, exceeded all commits and moved to L64. Because, except on the rare occasion, Microsoft and your team isn't going to change. The key thing is finding the right team and manager, along with the comments you made. weeks to find another position within the company, otherwise they are laid off.Anyone know others? Then you're on the path to higher levels. Only one can emerge, and not everyone can be a senior simultaneously. Also, its important to keep in mind that it is impossible to provide a perfect definition of any level. Don't try to counter with stock levels argument as that is more convoluted, and given the current economic debacle's effect on our stock price..I understand that folks want to be Senior this, and Principal that but the truth is that it is mostly a fetish for some big sounding titles. If you're not there yet and your boss was asked that question by your skip-level-boss, what is your boss's answer? They can be wrong about exactly what these flaws are, but they aren't wrong that you are flawed. When you see a bozo who is L65 it is highly likely that he had joined MS recently at L64-L65 directly.Here's biggest difference in expectations between levels: The L62 guys are supposed to be able to lead their feature and perhaps influence couple of related features by spreading their best practices. My queries on any specific guidance would get no response or the response that youre a 62 and you should be able to figure it out. The true professional with loads of potential is left to Sulk. Exceptional Director, hardworking, reliable, efficient, a team player, flexible to work 24 hours shift rota, prioritise my workload at all time, managing customers and team, managing safely, ability to carry out Risk Assessments and how to manage such Risks to minimal, excellent report written skills, excellent communicate skills both verbal and written forms including presentation using . I spend a lot of my time these days working with partner teams to help them solve their own problems or create wins for their teams even if it only peripherally touches my area. Microsoft's '08 Mistakes: The Software Giant's Three Errors http://www.networkworld.com/news/2008/121908-microsofts-08-mistakes-the-software.html?hpg1=bnJust three? Next, advertise your new branching strategy in your peer groups. more often than not it is up to the employee to use the resources, show maturity and commonsense and move up62 -> 63 is difficult and there is a reason behind it. Its nice to see constructive advice and stories from everyone.I'm in the 61 bucket and currently struggling with my team for many months. Be the Rosh Gadol Microsoftie. I've been at Microsoft six years.I've never spent one second honestly thinking about my career or how to get a promotion or anything like that. By then I had already already set up several clients as in independent consultant, so I declined to stay. You can wait 24 months to gain all the credibilty & visibilty & trust again that needs to intersect precisely with your new leaderships ability to argue you on the stack proficiently. Grammar nitpicking is fine when it's accurate. It varies greatly from manager to skip.The hardest point for me to bear is that I am young, capable of doing so much more, and absolutely dying to do more. Bowl Leader. HTH. Who da'Punk We are all flawed, and you are lucky if people are telling you something that you can do something about. Kudos to you for posting it. That sounded like a complete crock to me. Do you think I can find a way to do almost as well and stay here, in this job I enjoy?" Those teams I used to despise as a L60, and only tolerate as a 63? Candidates with evidence of effective teaching will be given preference. Give the employee directives and start documenting when they fail so a case can be brought to get rid of them if it comes to that. May 2008: Gold Star. >> You forgot "never ask for a promotion".This is better written as "Ask what specific things you are lacking in, which are preventing you from being promoted to the next level". It's hard for L63. "I wonder whyMicrosoft: Citi Cuts Ests, Target On PC Slowdown. Do a search for people in those groups in NYC area and check their status to see who is hiring. My old boss was a 65 but his title was "principal director of engineering", new boss is the exact same level and job and his title is "principal engineering manager". If youre not displaying them at the current level why would your manager expect that youll suddenly start to display them at the next level?2. It can help you identify blind spots which may be holding you back.7. I sympathize with folks who feel they have been shafted however to quote a cliched saying: the common factor between you and all your problems is you. If you're saying "Ah, dude, my boss is in the way of my promotion" then all I have to say is "Duuuude, your boss is the way to your promotion." Shock and awe awaits [sic].Four errors in grammar and punctuation in a post of just 14 words? You can forge a great partnership and accomplish a lot. Apple should in no way be throwing stones at Microsoft in this regard. (Summarized: Don't ever let your boss be frightened that you'll make him/her look bad. > What if you and your manager are at the same level L62. Pop quiz: who is it? These are sole individual personal points-of-view and the posts and comments by the participants in no way represent the official point-of-view of Microsoft or any other organization. Pass me by and I will be leaving in the next few months). you need to hit the pause button for one big time-out regarding where you are, where you're going, and what needs to change. That is, its hard to define, but I know it when I see it. Most of them are not. This way I can be in a better position to show that I am a "absolutely!" Outside of those two situations, I have never asked for a promotion. take the time to find a mentor that is a great fit for you and the issue you're working on. Or at least, more transparent feedback was communicated so you had a real idea of where your career was heading. The downside to this view within the Microsoft culture is that you are always expected to keep climbing the ladder even if you are content with your current job and a solid performer in it. I've seen some extremely senior developers propose solutions to problems, but be totally unconvincing. Some were also not very sexy/fun problem but they were all critical to ship. similar to maybe how EY says senior manager is Director (pwc, kpmg) equivalent. You're selling it in no less than eight different SKUs, (including the upgrades) and your marketing message is deliberately obfuscated to convince the customers to go for the most expensive one. She partners very closely with colleagues to develop and drive the people strategy across the UK GEO. However, the results show that the vast majority of dev/test/pm will make level 63 and in a reasonable timeframe. I am working towards it would say am there 75% of the way. You first have to be truthful with what direction you're going in and where you actually are trying to head. That is the guy to beat. What worked for me was to go to my manager and say: "I would like to stay here, at Microsoft, working for you. Whether your manager is hardcore or touchy-feely, you need a bulldog to promote you or you ain't goin' nowhere. IBM pulled themselves out of their decline by focusing on their customers. Less than a year is fast, but not unheard of. Same here. 4. I also don't know if this is the first step towards a lay-off, but for now, it seems we'll have jobs for a few more months.Ugh, not good, not good at all>I am a partner. I have actively helped people leave MS who were topped out at level at MS but who wanted to do something else. Rather nice site you've got here. From my perspective (L67) here's what you need to nail:1. Take responsibility for defining the component in front of you -- is it really the right thing for the product/team? Microsoft employees make an average base salary of $208k & a total compensation of $280k. Boeing, Go to company page Amazon, Go to company page While managers shouldn't be absolved of the responsibility, we do need to understand that your manager might not be able to help you. The L65 guys are expected to influence outcomes, strategy and best practices on their entire VP level groups. In the beginning, I volunteered for these tough areas that no one else wanted and over time, my brand became the fix it guy. After that I got 3 levels in 3 years and now at level 64. Thanks for keeping this focused. right?). Levels 57 and 58 are reserved for non-permanent employees and Levels 59 and 60 are reserved for New Graduates. However good your manager is, she or he is still a human with insecurities and ego. Do it nicely. When your manager finally ask you to do X, you'll be nodding your head and saying, "yeah, totally, and here's my progress on X." So a sub role at L61 = corp L63 and vice versa.So from a sub perspective:L58 and below are relatively junior roles where you have zero influence outside of meeting your commitmentsL59 -> L60 is a tougher jump. This is all well and good, but in 9years I've never worked in a group with a Senior IC (Windows, IE, .NET), though some architects.
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